Webapps chatlog - 2007-06-02

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02:27:23 ivii hi all
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08:39:40 jota  http:ar.geocities.com/fm_delrosario
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11:25:38 deny helloo
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18:07:31 bz007 hello,larskl !
18:07:55 bz007 how are you
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18:08:34 Remco This is a channel for talking about web applications bz007. Try #lounge for general chat
18:08:38 bz007 hello,how are you
18:08:57 Remco Read what I just said please
18:09:07 pffYussupov heh
18:10:41 bz007 what`s new in the web?
18:12:11 bz007 good buye
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19:54:25 gmoz I dissed Google Gears a bit
19:54:26 gmoz http://my.opera.com/zomg/blog/2007/06/02/whats-with-all-the-fuss-over-google-gears
19:54:29 gmoz =)
20:06:43 ROBOd gmoz: i don't agree with your article :)
20:06:58 * Remco sits back to enjoy the show
20:07:27 ROBOd Remco: indeed :)
20:08:01 gmoz ROBOd: go ahead and comment it then ;)
20:08:17 ROBOd gmoz: hehe
20:08:20 Remco You can talk about it in here too
20:08:25 gmoz only properly explained opinions kthx =)
20:08:26 ROBOd Remco: lol
20:08:59 gmoz I reserve the right to opinions such as "My opinion is right, yours is wrong"
20:09:03 gmoz *cough*
20:09:13 gmoz j/k
20:09:26 ROBOd *cough* "properly explained opinions" *cough*
20:09:41 ROBOd that's not in your article :D
20:09:46 gmoz what? =)
20:10:54 ROBOd i recommend watching the "market": Adobe Apollo, Microsoft Lightning, Google Gears, and the HTML 5 specification
20:11:10 aleksanteri gee
20:11:39 ROBOd offline web applications is the next logical step
20:11:54 Remco Then they're not web applications anymore
20:12:08 ROBOd Remco: precisely
20:12:17 ROBOd the web is taking over the software ;)
20:12:22 Remco You just sync them sometime
20:13:02 ROBOd gmoz: "Google's pages say that you can store files in their LocalStorage class. Nothing new. You could've done that with data urls or such even before Gears."
20:13:26 ROBOd elaborate on that. how can you really store data with JS, without Gears/Apollo/etc?
20:13:39 ROBOd and no Opera Widgets stuff, pls :D
20:13:49 ROBOd (something cross-platform, cross-browser)
20:13:57 Remco Serialize it
20:14:01 gmoz as cross platform/browser as Gears? :p
20:14:10 ROBOd gmoz: yes
20:14:15 Remco Or data uri
20:14:17 gmoz with a data URL
20:14:19 gmoz like I said in the article
20:14:21 ROBOd Remco: serialize, then save to ...?
20:14:31 Remco Data uri? :P
20:14:32 gmoz you can just dump the data url to a variable in JS
20:14:54 ROBOd ok. but what's the user supposed to do with the data url?
20:15:10 gmoz What's the user supposed to do with a locally stored file?
20:15:43 Remco If you want your mail local, use pop/imap
20:15:54 ROBOd gmoz: i don't think you properly understood what's the use case for local storage provided by Gears, Apollo et al.
20:16:02 Remco If you want your rss feeds local, use an rss reader
20:16:15 gmoz ROBOd: well explain to me what I missed then =)
20:16:20 Remco They're far more efficient at what they do
20:16:41 ROBOd the whole point is allowing web applications on the client side to do what we can do on the server-side
20:16:53 ROBOd store data, save variables, files, search databases and such
20:17:13 ROBOd the data url is quite limited, compared to Google Gears LocalStorage, for example
20:17:31 Remco http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/06/01/2050252.shtml
20:17:34 Remco How about that?
20:17:35 gmoz Maybe, but give me some reason to store files locally
20:17:36 ROBOd the data url requires user interaction and it's by far inefficient for having application settings
20:17:49 gmoz You could write a wrapper class for it
20:17:54 gmoz ála LocalStorage :P
20:17:56 ROBOd gmoz: what's the reason for erm ... OpenOffice to store files locally?
20:18:09 gmoz Since when is OpenOffice a web application?
20:18:42 ROBOd gmoz: not only OpenOffice-like software will be built on the web
20:18:48 ROBOd that's just one example
20:19:00 gmoz Yeah I've used Writely and whatever the spreadsheet one is called
20:19:06 gmoz Can't say I like 'em much
20:19:10 ROBOd look into the future. that's what they are doing. they are building the next platforms you will use
20:19:24 ROBOd true, they are "humble" beginnings
20:19:26 gmoz I don't want to use a Word processor written in JavaScript
20:19:30 ROBOd they will be much better
20:19:46 gmoz Even less a spreadsheet app
20:19:47 ROBOd gmoz: they have changed their mind about JS, it's no longer a toy language
20:20:09 gmoz and I know that just as well as they do
20:20:10 Remco Then they better start supporting Opera because they will need the fast javascript engine
20:20:18 gmoz but it's not a language to write heavy apps either
20:20:28 ROBOd Gecko 2 is supposed to implement a virtual machine (search Tamarin), compiler for JS 2
20:20:34 gmoz even my widgets perform slowly
20:21:06 gmoz If they can increase the performance of JS to something like, say, C# or VB6
20:21:26 gmoz then they might be on to something
20:21:44 ROBOd the web is changing. Gears, Apollo, Lightning are all proposing this
20:22:03 gmoz but JS itself is kind of crippled as a language and was released kind of hurriedly
20:22:17 gmoz well, they might fix the problems with it in new revisions though
20:22:31 ROBOd JS 2 is coming down the road :)
20:22:47 Remco I'd rather keep most of my data local, unless I can encrypt it myself before putting it online
20:22:48 ROBOd see ActionScript 3 - very similar with JS 2, already in Flash CS 3
20:23:15 Remco I don't need google to index every document I've ever written
20:23:38 ROBOd Remco: it has already done that, hehe
20:23:41 ROBOd :D
20:23:43 Remco Nope :P
20:24:14 Remco Your entire life will be behind a username and a password. They should implement security like banks do
20:24:28 ROBOd nonetheless, interesting times lie ahead
20:25:10 Remco Life is interesting :)
20:26:17 ROBOd gmoz: as for the relational db in Gears. that's very useful
20:28:03 ROBOd running async JS is not that "nice" with setInterval/setTimeout. they are not very good in the scenario of coding OpenOffice equivalents ;)
20:28:20 gmoz Nor is the way they have implemented it in Gears
20:28:32 ROBOd you need real threads, you need real async JS execution.
20:28:52 gmoz Locks, mutexes... where art thou?
20:28:54 ROBOd gmoz: i'm not saying Gears is "panaceum" :). it's just they are doing something interesting
20:29:10 ROBOd gmoz: hehe, that too if they'll be needed
20:29:22 gmoz that won't be very possible without altering the language itself
20:30:10 ROBOd threads are being planned
20:30:40 ROBOd the language has been altered, already, for JS 2
20:35:48 ROBOd gotta go sleep
20:35:51 ROBOd good night to all
20:35:55 gmoz night
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20:38:30 gmoz Boring.
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